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Venden Seminar Notes #18 – Getting God Off the Hook

04/10/2015 @ 8:15 pm
by dchale5050
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In the beginning ‘interview’ section, Morris tells a story about how he made his seventh grade teacher cry.

We start out here with a little chat about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation. There has been a fair amount of speculation about this group of people over the years, but we aren’t going to get into exactly who they are as much as into what some of their attributes are.



So, what does it mean that, “These are those that did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.”

Oh, so this group has the power to keep themselves pure? Lots of questions get raised surrounding this group of people.


Why is this group inseparable from Jesus?

Perhaps we can find out.

The premise is that God is on the hook,

& He is anxious to get off.


Guile means, cunning, craftiness, slyness, deviousness, deception, deceit, duplicity, underhandedness, double-dealing, or trickery… but fish bait?

“I suppose you are tricking the fish into believing that it is safe to eat, aye?”


Lee tells the Ice fishing story @ the 9:30 mark.

Okay Lee, I’m having a problem with this one buddy. The fish bait concept is a pretty big stretch for me. It doesn’t translate well with the true meaning of Guile. You would expect those who are saved to be devoid of deception, deceit or deviousness which is the more obvious group of synonyms attributed to guile.

The example ends up with the statement exchanging the word guile with fish bait which leads to this premise. These people have no fish bait meaning they are the same on the inside as on the outside, no deciete. ?Hmm? A very strange analogy that doesn’t work for me, but the Ice Fishing story got a good laugh!! ;oP

When Jesus is living within a person there is no room for the devil who IS the author of deceit, or guile. 

Doesn’t this description fit all who have been saved, since they have ALL been changed in the twinkling of an eye, or is it supposed to be describing what they were before Jesus comes?

Lee says they don’t just act right they are right, because something has happened to their insides that has transformed them. They don’t just stay out of trouble they don’t want trouble. They have new hearts and new desires. Something has happened to make them pure all the way through.

But, doesn’t that apply to everyone who has been saved? Why was this verse snatched out of the whole? Why wasn’t the rest of the passage included in these explanations because this sentence… “These are those that did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.” …certainly seems like a qualifying factor that is important!

So, Lee asks “how does this relate to God being on the hook, or to God getting off of the hook. The reason God is on the hook in the first place is because the people are on the hook, and the reason that God will finally get off the hook is because his people will finally get off the hook”. Really? Hmm. On the hook for what? Sin? Hooked on sin?

Lets take a look back at Rev 14:7 again.


Until I got into these seminars, I always was of the impression that it was OUR judgment that was taking place, not God being judged by the Universe. Interesting point right there, and it makes an enormous difference!

Why would God need to conduct a public trial of each individual who ever lived?

Boring! I don’t see the point at all in that. Instead, in my opinion, all God needs to do to justify His decisions as to the fate of all mankind, is to give a historical presentation from Creation to the end of the world, but whatever He does will be fine with me.

A panoramic Huge Screen (“the sky is the limit, aye”?) pictorial of how this world degenerated from perfection to self destruction in just 6,000 years. Just six lifetimes based on Adam’s length of days, and all because man decided to stop trusting God – to live his life apart from God.

It certainly is a good thing God shortened mans life spans or man would have been right back where he was before the flood about a thousand years before Christ was born. Turn your back on your creator? Brilliant move, right? It didn’t worked out well when the devil decided to do it either, aye folks?

Man turning his back on The Creator caused it all, and then God showed His incredible Love beyond measure, by paying the very price that we were obligated to pay. It doesn’t get any more convincing than that! Just think of the changes in Adam and Eve’s expressions as they watch this incredible display!

Think of how devastated they would be just seeing the change that the flood made on this planet. They had experienced first hand the “ground being cursed” and watched death surround them, but seeing the drastic changes through the ages would have to be a terrible punishment in itself, right? WOW!

Then imagine their looks when they see the explosion of knowledge that took place in what was the equivalent of less than a third of their lifetimes. That alone will astonish them and all the rest of mankind who didn’t live during the end of the Earth’s history. What a display of evil compared to God’s Character of Love!

The Apostle John will be saying things like, “Jesus, You showed me that, and that too, and I was at a loss for words to describe it! Chariots of fire indeed!” No, God doesn’t need to try each and every one of the wicked in a public trial to “get Himself off the hook”. A comparison of perfection to the results of sin is sufficient.

And every knee will bow and declare that God is just. But God has been falsely accused of being unfair, and the devil throughout the ages has been promoting his vast array of lies about God, and this will be the reckoning where all of his claims that will be evaluated & settled. The result is described next.


@ the 15:00 mark Lee tells the story about Dave the RN.

The judge at Dave’s trial scoffed at the idea that Jesus, can change lives like he did mine and Dave’s! The judge said that transformation through a relationship with someone you can’t even see is a pipe dream. The prosecutor (satan) says obedience is impossible, but the prosecutor will be cast down!

I have a hard time agreeing with some ideas or statements that I can’t corroborate with a Bible text. I’m betting we are going to see the texts that back this next concept up. The premise is…



Although God’s law is unchanging, & the penalty of disobedience is death, the Love of God was larger than the penalty of disobedience and so He and His Word planned and flawlessly executed that plan for our salvation, thereby Crushing The devil’s Claim!

Since Calvary the devil had to change his focus to something other than the hopelessness of sinful man since forgiveness is, and always has been, a matter of simple faith, but now forgiveness became a proven fact by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross!

Now the focus shifts to overcoming vs. forgiveness.

The accusation is that…


@26:30 Lee tells the story of Kevin’s suicide. Why did he check out early? Because people misrepresenting the power of the gospel told him it was impossible for him to experience change and victory in his life this side of Heaven! WOW.

They cost him his life, and his blood is on their heads. They said that the Gospel didn’t have the power to change his life and that he would continue to fail and fall until he died or Jesus returned. He chose death not knowing when Christ would come, and feeling that he couldn’t bare life as it was any more. Pretty sad when Clergy are making the same claim that the devil is making, aye?

Most of Jesus life was spent in Galilee, not on Calvary!

Jesus came to show us how to live as much as he came to die for us.

Both are important. Now God intends to show once and for all that all the false claims and charges are untrue. Obedience and a Christlike character CAN be experienced this side of Heaven IF we are willing to tap in to the only source of power able to overcome sin.

God is the source of that power, and Christ has already proven that living a life of obedience through the power of God in you absolutely works. Won’t it be nice when God is able to show a group of people who managed to prove that it worked for them as well? Nice indeed. That must be this group who follows Jesus around all over the place.

Are we more interested in forgiveness than we are in overcoming? That’s the major Christian focus in the world today. Very little focus on how to gain victory in this life through the indwelling power of God, and many even claiming like satan that it just isn’t possible. So back to the verse that this premise is built on.


God will work in our lives daily to bring us into perfect obedience to His will, if we will just continue to trust him, and come daily to Him, until we reach the point that he is always with us 24/7/365. When we walk with God as Enoch did every day, as the best of friends, then we will discover one day that we truly hate all sin.

He wants to work IN US to WILL and to DO His GOOD pleasure.

Who is doing it? He is!

When we fall and fail it’s always because we stopped leaning on Jesus, just like the song says. How can you lean on someone that you aren’t close to?

You can’t!

It’s through that constant, daily, growing, lifesaving, relationship with Him

that we will become conquerors

THROUGH His power.

One day you’ll discover that you’ve been leaning on Jesus so long and constantly that you can’t remember the last time you fell.

Are you still a sinner?

Yep. You always will be, but a sinner saved by Grace is a happy sinner.

Once an alcoholic always one, but a recovered one is a happy one.


Saving people FROM their sins is certainly different from saving people IN their sins. God doesn’t stop at forgiveness, but continues on to provide the power to enjoy a victorious Christian life of obedience as well.

Lee makes a pretty bold statement in saying that we will NEVER be sinless until Jesus comes again. But then he says what seems to contradict that by saying that God “would like to” (is going to?) bring a group to a point where they are no longer sins-ing. There’s that play on words again. It’s intention is to separate sins from THE SIN. What’s with the contradictions here.

I’ve heard things to the contrary that there will be a group of people who will need to live a sinless life for a certain length of time prior to the second coming and that those people will be the only ones left alive who are saved! Is that true? Wouldn’t those be this 144,000 being singled out here?

That can be a disheartening statement to those who have tried to overcome their sins and failed miserably! It makes them pray to NOT be alive during that ‘sinless time period’.


There are several wrong reasons for Obedience. Obeying so that you can get to heaven is the most common wrong reason and it reeks of a self centered inward focus. It also takes the focus back to the person “Doing” whats right to “Earn” life eternal. It certainly isn’t wrong to want to be there, but it is the wrong reason for obedience.


Fear is another selfish reason.


Pride is another selfish reason. Doing what’s right in order to ‘look good’ to the rest of the church members is typical of the Pharisees of old. Baring good fruit. Don’t forget. A fruit tree bares good fruit not to prove it’s a fruit tree but because it is. Christ producing good fruits in you, isn’t you producing plastic fruit baskets.


Another selfish reason is to stay out of jail. I’m going to obey the law because I don’t want to pay the price for disobedience. The same thing as fearing Hell the ultimate punishment. None of these reasons come from a changed heart. They are all self centered reasons for obedience.

Obviously, even the reason WHY we obey is important. If the reason we obey is because we have Jesus dwelling within making the changes we need so that we can reflect Gods will in our lives then those changes that bring obedience are for the right reasons.

We are being changed by love – by that friendship that is growing each and every day. But all of the wrong reasons given above stem from the concept that we have to do it. The devil knows that if he can make us believe that we must do it with our own hard work, then we will fail, & he will have yet another example as proof that it is impossible to Obey God’s Laws.


God is continuing to prove to the Universe that mortal man can live a life of obedience to his law, through total dependence on Him, just like Jesus did. Enoch did it, and God took him!

Jesus came to be Our Example, not just Our Savior.

The power to do God’s will comes from God so…


That is why we need to go DAILY to get the power that we need.

So, what IS the correct reason for obedience that produces the character like Christ’s character, and how does it work?


As your daily relationship grows you get to a place where you care about how the world (your friends and acquaintances) perceives God. How God is viewed by those around you begins to matter to you.

So, what are you going to do about that? We have an opportunity to help clear God’s name. Well now, THAT is one very good unselfish reason for wanting to obey! Can you come to the point where it matters so much how the world perceives God that you want to change their opinion?

At that point

you’ll never want to be separated from your relationship with Him,

and sin will become a hated item that you want no part of.

God is saying, “Can I get a witness?”, and you can then stand up and say, “Here I am Lord!”

Are you willing to allow God to use you as evidence

that His Law Can Be Obeyed by man?


There are four groups shown here. Who are they?


This group either never accepted Jesus or after accepting Him they turned away from Him and went back to living their life apart from that loving relationship. If you are not in a life saving relationship with Christ then you are not justified, you are unjust.


This group is the Filthy Rags Group. They decided that they could Be Good on their own. They are the Pharisee types who did all of the right things for all of the wrong reasons. Their righteousness was like filthy rags.


This group is comprised of anyone who has accepted Jesus and Believes In Him, but who never had the opportunity to grow into the state of being where God could hold them up as evidence that man could conquer sin through the indwelling power of God. The thief on the cross is a good example of this. He accepted Christ Righteousness as his own within just hours of his death.


This group DID MAKE IT to the stage where God said,

YES! “Let he who is Holy be Holy still”!

These are the people who are leaning so heavily on Jesus that they have no time for sin. There will be the Righteous in heaven who didn’t live long enough to come to this point, but there are going to be this group who did reach this stage in their relationship with God. Is Enoch the first of this group?

@46:30 Lee tells about Joe, the slave.

The man who bought Joe payed a price far higher than Joe was worth, just to give him freedom from bondage! Don’t you think that Joe would do anything he could to protect the good name of his master? That’s exactly what God has done for us, and now His Good Name must be exonerated!

I’m not always in complete agreement with every thought while on my way to the conclusions of these seminars, but once I get to the conclusion, Morris & Lee & I are always 100% on the same page!

How does that work?


I’m not sure how that works, but I like it!

May God bless you all this week

by giving you

a closer friendship with Him each day.




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